Update to the technique

[phale]

I've understood that there will be a new edition of the book later this year with some updates to the technique. On this Update Course video they mention "neutral-like-edge", "neutral-like-overdrive" and "neutral-like-curbing": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZknSfKxXHY

[Emsti]

Hi, I’m new here, but I’m definitely not new to CVT

I also am very interested about what exactly does the new mode policy (if you will ) change.

Namely:
1. Why did you revise the entire system, rather than to keep talking about it as about the verges of modes, which are less healthy, is it really such a large, and freshly discovered range of possibilities?
2. Does the fg. "neutral-like-overdrive" or the "neutral-like-curbing" cover what was long a open question – that is the (if a may call it so) airy metallic sound, which can be heard with such singers as John Mayer (like here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQDxtzf-FDM&t=26s its called "stop this train"), which previously was thought of as not really a good idea, if you don’t want to damage your voice.
3. Can you give any examples of singers who move around that area? (either one of the three).

[Hanmuller]

I have been able to do those "new" modes for some time now and it's my experience that it's used quite a lot and maybe that's why they updated on the matter. Ex. It's my belief that a lot of male melodic-heavy-rock singers use those "modes", otherwise it would be too demanding singing that high for so long.

Here is an example of Neutral and "Neutral-Like-Curbing" (ex. listen at 00:18). You can hear that some parts "sound like" Curbing but really are not:

https://www.box.com/shared/aege8se6by

[phale]

2. Does the fg. "neutral-like-overdrive" or the "neutral-like-curbing" cover what was long a open question – that is the (if a may call it so) airy metallic sound, which can be heard with such singers as John Mayer (like here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQDxtzf-FDM&t=26s its called "stop this train"), which previously was thought of as not really a good idea, if you don’t want to damage your voice.

One of the things authorized CVT-teacher Ville Laaksonen mensions in his blog (unfortunately in Finnish) regarding the advantages of the new methods is indeed when singer would like to add air or "hoarseness" to metallic sounds. Others are for example if the metallic modes feel too heavy or too loud or they can't be used higher than some limit. Or on the opposite the metallic modes seem to be too light or the singer feels that he/she has several ways to produce certain mode. He also mentions other situations like when the changes between modes feel difficult and the voice breaks or when the neutral mode feels too easy for wanted style, so maybe they have some clarifications on this falsetto/flageolet issue that has been a little bit confusing at least for myself.

[gera89]

Hi there, i want to ask some questions too about this new version, updated, of the CVT book:

Would this book explain what exactly is flageolet? wikipedia says that it is the same that whistle voice! (here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistle_register ) but on CVT, you say that males only can produce sounds on flageolet from C5 and above, while whistle voice is more a tecnique used to hit higher notes, around C6. so i think that CVT's flageolet is not the same as whistle voice! -although i think it is possible to bring whistle voice 'down' to C5, the notes of that octave all can be produced without whistle voice!-

Would the next version explain a little more about this 'whistle register'? how do the 4 modes influence this part of the voice? what happens with support?

Would the next version explain a difference between male falsetto and an airy non-compressed neutral voice? (these two 'sound' a little similar but in fact they 'feel' VERY different)

Would the next version be able to buy and just download on PDF format? and, does the current version has that option? (i am really interested in getting this answer cause i wanna as soon as possible start with the book and skype classes with CVT teachers), and along with that, will the Paypal service be able to buy this book in the future or near future?

Thank you very very much!
Gerardo

[Emsti]

Would this book explain what exactly is flageolet?

It already does.

I affraid in this particular case wikipedia may just be wrong. As CVI did extensive studys (thats how i understood it) and has evidence
that flageolet is the thing that appears at C1 (i of course ment C2, that was a mistake which gera rightly pointed out in the post below)(and if you can reach it you are very likely to experiance it yourself, I feel it) we must neglect all of the
previous theories and face the facts.

so i think that CVT's flageolet is not the same as whistle voice!

Of course you're right. No one is arguing that it is the same thing.

Would the next version explain a little more about this 'whistle register'? how do the 4 modes influence this part of the voice? what happens with support?

CVT claims that it already has expalined everything about the whistle voice - check previous topic in which Kaare has given their understanding of it. From what i remember he argued that the whistle voice can be performed in various modes - he even mentioned that Mariah Carey is doing some of the Whistle voice notes in Edge! (which i doubt).

_____________
But what i would like to express is my astonishment of the lack of study of methods and pathways enabling one to learn the whistle voice. I mean, i've read that in the early days CVT did the reasearch in the following way:
-they took a guy what could f.ex. sing very loud for hours and not get hoarse, and they would examin what is it about what he is doing that is diffrent from what others (who can't do it) are doing, and to look for practical ways of making it possible.

Well.
SLS demonstrably produces singers with higher range, than CVT does. Not that they are better singers, or with with broader stylistic possibilities, but they can do this whistle voice thing far better.
So why not just look for the things SLS does in the sphere of whistle voice, and check what helps and what doesn't.
____________

Concerning support - the answer is - nothing special. You just support the way you would with any other mode.

Dunno what falsetto is

Btw. you're asking those questions when in fact, at no point does it say anywhere by the officials that there will be some kind of a new book , i mean there probably will, but who knows if it will be in a matter of few months or a year. This topic was set initialy (i think) to clear that up.

[gera89]

Thanks for your answers!!
well talking about the update of the book, here they say that it's true! (the last part of the text: 'A updated version is expected in stock fall 2012.' )
http://completevocalinstitute.com/books ... /cvt-book/

I am always a little confused about the fact that there are different ways to call the same notes on their octaves hahah!
anyway but you are saying that flageolet is what happens at C1, which i 'think' it would be C5 (high C for tenors, the note 1 octave above from middle C or C4), but if that is the case, i dont feel any type of change on that note!! (the high C for tenors) in fact, for me the big feeling of 'change', is around D4 (that is the place where i bridge, as i am a baritone) and from that note (D4) and above i have this different 'register' (commonly called head voice) in which i have to compress and support more! is that flageolet?, are flageolet and 'head voice' the same thing?, if that is the case, it is very weird! cause it has no sense to me to say that the head voice of a male starts at C5! (tenor high C) maybe for a female! but thats too high to bridge for a male!!!.
for this reason i think that flageolet and 'head voice' could be different things, maybe flageolet is a second bridge above the one of head voice? -my range, for now, goes from D2 to F5, but the notes above C5 are very difficult to me to do. although, once a few days ago, i dont know why i felt that part of my voice (C5-F5) totally released, and those notes felt easier than the notes from below! and the sound was so heavy and strong!, now i forget how the hell i achieved that state hahah very weird thing-, could be flageolet a second bridge?

you dont know what is falsetto? falsetto is that sound that is super airy and disconnected from fullvoice, although you can do it on mid and low notes, the common thing is that, when a male without vocal technique tries to go to a higher note that what he can usually do, he 'breakes' into falsetto, that is this airy disconnected -and with very little resonance- voice. from what i know, the lower the voice -baritones, and totally basses- the more pronunced is this coordination, and in other words, it is more difficult to this voices to learn to bridge , build and learn how to use their 'head' voices -fullvoice compressed sound at higher pitches-.
And what i ask before was, what is the difference between the falsetto voice (airy non fullvoice, disconnected, without resonance) and to produce a non-compressed neutral sound (airy fullvoice) on CVT! i really wanna know what they can say about this cause it seems that they consider that this 2 coordinations ARE THE SAME!! and that is totally 100% not true!! lol hahah

Thank you again for the answers!! i hope too that one CVT teacher -perhaps kaare!- could come to help us! that would be great

[Hanmuller]

I believe that the CVT definition of how the flageolet works is not quite right. They say that only a part of the vocal folds are vibrating which creates higher notes just like fretting a guitar string. This is what other singing methods have called "zipping up" ex. SLS. However most have abandoned this definition.

This coordination has never been proven and it is only rumored that it has been observed a few times but only in the "whistle voice". And it has not been proven either that this vocal fold coordination is required to sing above high C.

The vocal folds doesn't "zip up" . Instead they become thin and tense and apparently a little bowed and only the outer edges are vibrating. It is theorised, and it is the most common notion, that this is because the thyroarytenoid (TA) is being relaxed. In most scientific circles this is defined as "falsetto".

And what i ask before was, what is the difference between the falsetto voice (airy non fullvoice, disconnected, without resonance) and to produce a non-compressed neutral sound (airy fullvoice) on CVT!

The difference is, that most likely the TA has been relaxed in "falsetto" and this causes insufficient adduction (though in the higher ranges they can achieve full adduction) which makes the tone airy. However if you twang a lot you can adduct the vocal folds completely in the middle and lower ranges (though it becomes harder the lower you use this coordination). Here is an example of twanged "falsetto" from E4 - B4:

https://www.box.com/shared/c1ehb93mko

So yes, those two coordinations (falsetto and "airy fullvoice) are different (the amount of TA involvement) and that's probably also why they feel different.

[Jens]

hanmuller ive had the same impression, specialy when you compare mens and womens voices, i think they behave the same. with the womens voice and the functions only lie slightly higher. not an whole octave apart as the bout book seams to imply, i made a thread about this quite ecently
nice to see you active again sing well martin

[Ty]

I feel the update should include a more in depth information on flageolet, like how to produce curbing, or edge, or neutral in flageolet. It could also talk about using effects on it, and the sound color of flageolet (or how to change it, Lighter/Darker and such). Cause the book really only gives a page about the very high part of the page, so its a bit useless for me to develop that part of the voice

Also it could talk about increasing range (i.e. how to turn a 2 octaves into 5 octaves in all the modes, with the exception of overdrive).

*And another thing that might help is how to get rid of flageolet below a High C for males and females

We'll that's just my two cents, hope CVT considers them or has already put them in place

[Jens]

Ty noone that i know of have had à five octave range in any mode except for neutral let alone four.

[Emsti]

well talking about the update of the book, here they say that it's true!

Then excuse my ignorance

noone that i know of have had à five octave range in any mode except for neutral let alone four.

Yep, my ex-CVT teacher's record in Edge is E3.

This coordination has never been proven and it is only rumored that it has been observed a few times but only in the "whistle voice". And it has not been proven either that this vocal fold coordination is required to sing above high C.

well, then i must say that i feel a bit angry with CVI teachers for preaching it as certainty, although if they have been successful with working with singers
who had an flageolet problem, then again there is good reason to believe it is so.

I feel the update should include a more in depth information on flageolet

Agreed. It has caused much confusion, and I still can't get rid of it, regardles what i do so i can only confim your request.

[Hanmuller]

well, then i must say that i feel a bit angry with CVI teachers for preaching it as certainty, although if they have been successful with working with singers
who had an flageolet problem, then again there is good reason to believe it is so.

I believe it's their definition that's wrong. The way they address the issue in their pedagogy is fine.

[gera89]

i think it would be so good if kaare or someone else from the cvt staff could answer to this topic!

[CVI Teaching Staff]

Hi guys, very interesting thread.

New "modes" (positions) or whatever we should call them, we still treat in exactly the same way as the four modes.
Its the volume thats interesting.

People are asking for the difference in male Neutral (I guess you mean female as well - no difference - just different pitch,)
and falsetto, flageolet.

Falsetto is a pitch description!
Reason why we dont use it?
Because people around the world means different things when they say falsetto voice - meaning it sounds differently from place to place.

Flageolet is an acoustic phenomenon that happens above the high C´s - whether we like it or not.
Sing above the high C, in any kind of volume, there´s a flageolet tension on the cords, enabling you to produce sound.
More about that in the new book.

The "mode- like´s" will help us define the vast land of Neutral a lot more exact.

Many singers are using the mode-likes:
Sting, Stevie, Carey, D. Parton etc etc...we all are, at a certain point.

Start in Overdrive at volume 9 (has to be 9), keep position and gradually turn down the volume without changing anything in the vocal tract - vowel or sound color.
When you get to volume 6-5-4 you are in a Neutral-like-Overdrive.
There´s no metal on the notes -but it sounds like a metal sound nonetheless.
So to be precise; it is, in this case, called Neutral-like Overdrive.

Hang on, the book is on its way:-)
Gerardo, Ill check the Paypal situation with the office soon.

Best regards
Kaare